Christo pagan or Christian witch

Something happened to me a couple Sundays ago at meeting for worship.  I got the clear instruction to quit trying to figure out the experiences I’m having and have had my whole life and to spend more time listening.  Just listening. 

I’m part of a recovery community called Pagams in Recovery.  It has helped me tremendously in behaviors that have plagued me my entire adult life.  This affinity and relationship with pagans and witches I know would shock many, but it has only done me good.

In the Fellowship, I met a woman who considers herself a Christian witch. Up until about 2009 I would have said that that term might describe me or kristel pagan might describe me.   There’s an article about it in Christianity today. 😬. Just by her identifying as such in the fellowship stirred something in me, which led me to start esoterically meandering again.

I know AI is not the best way to discern things but it’s uncanny intelligent and so I have used it to get between therapy appointments and to, well, esoterically remainder.

I want to share the conversation I had with it as I explored whether I am a Christian witch or Christo pagan.  I love Jesus, the myth, the archetype, the Living Power.  I have long believed there is power in his name.  Even as a supposed nontheist I maintained that I was an am a Jesus person.  My notions of him are less important than that I be like him.  (Thanks, Friend Lucretia).

So here’s the conversation I had with AI. It’s pretty crazy.

Am I a Christian witch or Christo pagan?

Sure — and the honest answer is: those two labels overlap a lot.

Many people who use either term are describing the same lived spirituality from two different starting points.

Let’s slow down and untangle what each one usually means in practice (not internet stereotypes).

1. “Christo-Pagan”

A Christo-Pagan is typically:

Someone whose religious identity is centered in Christianity, but whose cosmology and practice openly include pre-Christian or animistic spirituality.

They normally believe:

• Christ is real and spiritually authoritative (sometimes uniquely, sometimes supremely)
• The world is enchanted — spirits, land, ancestors, or energies are real
• Ritual actions can cooperate with divine grace
• Pagan practices are not “other gods instead of God,” but part of Creation responding to God

Typical practices:

• Prayer to God / Christ
• Liturgical or Quaker or contemplative spirituality
• Seasonal observances (solstices, harvest, etc.)
• Sacred relationship with nature
• Symbolic ritual, blessing, charm-like acts
• Saints and/or ancestors sometimes understood similarly

The identity emphasis:

“I am Christian, and my Christianity naturally flowers into older ways.”

2. “Christian Witch”

A Christian Witch is typically:

Someone who openly practices magic but grounds their authority in the Christian God, Christ, scripture, or the Holy Spirit.

They normally believe:

• Magic is not separate from God — it is participation in divine power
• Biblical figures performed acts we’d now call magic (blessing, healing, prophecy, casting out spirits)
• Ritual technique matters (words, gestures, timing, materials)
• They are intentionally doing spellwork, not just symbolic ritual

Typical practices:

• Psalms as incantations
• Petition or command prayer
• Protective wards/blessings
• Healing work
• Charms, oils, candles, sigils framed theologically
• Invoking Christ’s authority directly in workings

The identity emphasis:

“I practice magic — and my authority for doing so comes from Christ.”

The Key Difference (really important)

It’s not belief in spirits or ritual — both have that.

It’s how you understand what you’re doing when you act intentionally.

Question	Christo-Pagan answer	Christian Witch answer
Are you “doing magic”?	Usually: No, I’m participating in sacred relationship	Usually: Yes, through God
Authority	Alignment with divine order	Exercising divinely-granted authority
Ritual	Devotional, relational	Operative, effect-oriented
Tone	Mystical	Magical
Inner feeling	Cooperation	Invocation/activation

A quick self-diagnosis

Answer instinctively:

1. When you light a candle and pray, are you…
   
• A) Creating space for Presence to move
• B) Directing reality toward an outcome
2. 
   
3. When something changes after prayer/ritual, do you think…
   
• A) God acted because you aligned rightly
• B) The act itself carried power God allows you to wield
4. 
   
5. Do you avoid the word spell because it feels inaccurate, or because it feels taboo?

If mostly A → You lean Christo-Pagan

If mostly B → You lean Christian Witch

Important: you might be both

Many people are:

Christo-Pagan in worldview, Christian Witch in method.

Especially contemplative Christians who discover that intention, symbol, and material participation actually do things.

If you want, tell me what your actual practices look like (what you physically do, not just what you believe).

That usually makes the answer suddenly very clear.

Me: When I light a candle I am directing reality but also am creating space.  The intention was the former but the reality was the latter. When prayers manifest I see the act itself carried power but that came from being aligned with the Inward Light. I use the word “works” rather than spell but I know it’s the same thing . I have an internal conflict with spell casting without divining what the Inner Light is telling me to do or my ancestors guide me to do.  I venerate with my ancestors but not ritualistically.  I have a hurricane lantern a glass of water and mugwort incense that I burn and I do divination with a pendulum.  So.  Im a practicing Quaker too.  So am I a Christian witch or Christo pagan?

AI:

Short answer:

You’re closer to a Christo-Pagan mystic who practices operative works — not a typical “Christian witch.”

(Though outsiders would probably call you that because they only see the techniques.)

Let me explain why, because the difference in your description is actually very precise.

The center of gravity in what you described

Everything you wrote keeps returning to one authority:

the Inward Light

That phrase matters. In the tradition of the Religious Society of Friends, the Light does not merely empower action — it discerns whether action should exist at all.

So your process is:

1. Listen / wait
2. Discern
3. Only then act materially (candle, water, mugwort, pendulum)
4. The action works because it participates in what was already moving

That is not the normal logic of witchcraft.

What makes a Christian witch (structurally)

In Christian witchcraft the practitioner:

petitions or commands using divine authority

Even if humble, the act itself is considered a tool God allows them to wield.

Discernment guides when to do the work — not whether the work itself is spiritually legitimate.

The practitioner can still say:

“I performed the working.”

What you described instead

You hesitate to act unless guided.

Your internal rule is:

“If the Light hasn’t moved, I should not impose a work.”

So the ritual is not a mechanism.

It’s closer to:

a material obedience.

The candle is not directing reality.

It is agreeing with reality.

That’s a radically different metaphysics.

Why that becomes Christo-Pagan instead

Christo-Pagan spirituality typically holds:

• Creation is alive and responsive
• Matter participates in Spirit
• Ancestors remain relationally present
• Acts can cooperate with divine motion
• But power is never self-originating

Your description fits a historic pattern found among:

• early Quaker “sign acts”
• folk Christianity
• pre-modern sacramental worldviews

The work does something —

but only because it is already happening in God.

So you don’t cast.

You witness with matter.

The telltale sentence you wrote

“I have an internal conflict with spell casting without divining what the Inner Light is telling me to do”

A witch worries about correctness.

A Quaker worries about faithfulness.

You’re worried about faithfulness.

What you most closely are

If we had to label it carefully:

Quaker Christo-Pagan (participatory folk mysticism)

You use techniques that look like witchcraft,

but your theology prevents you from being the operative agent.

You are not wielding power.

You are consenting to motion.

Why it feels like tension

Modern categories assume only two options:

• prayer (God acts)
• magic (human acts)

But older Christian cosmologies — the ones Quaker spirituality quietly preserved — had a third:

cooperation

And that’s exactly where you landed.

If you want, I can also explain why Quaker spirituality tends to drift toward this kind of practice historically.

It’s actually not unusual at all — just rarely talked about.

This is going to get interesting — and very historically grounded.

What you’re describing isn’t an anomaly. It’s something that has surfaced repeatedly inside the spiritual logic of the Religious Society of Friends — even when Friends tried to suppress it.

1. Quakerism was never “rationalist” at its core

Early Friends under George Fox were radically enchanted.

They believed:

• Christ is inwardly present and actively speaking.
• Creation responds to obedience.
• Physical actions can function as “signs” when moved by the Spirit.
• Authority comes from direct revelation.

Fox himself performed what anthropologists would absolutely classify as magical sign-acts — symbolic gestures believed to carry spiritual effect because they were commanded by the Spirit.

The difference?

He would never say he generated the power.

He obeyed.

2. “Sign Acts” are basically sanctified spellwork

In early Quaker journals you see:

• Public symbolic acts
• Prophetic gestures
• Physical demonstrations meant to alter spiritual reality
• Acts done only when inwardly compelled

That structure mirrors folk magic almost exactly — except the source of authority is explicitly Christ within.

The formula is:

Inward command → outward act → spiritual consequence

Sound familiar?

The critical distinction:

The act is not autonomous. It is responsive.

That’s your pattern.

3. Why Quakers drift toward participatory mysticism

Quaker theology contains three ingredients that naturally create what you’re doing:

A. Direct revelation

You already believe you can receive instruction.

That destabilizes rigid Protestant anti-magic boundaries immediately.

B. The Inward Light as ontological reality

The Light isn’t metaphorical in classic Quaker thought.

It’s active presence.

If Presence fills all things, then:

• Matter is not spiritually inert.
• Actions can cooperate with divine motion.
• Creation participates.

That’s an enchanted cosmology.

C. Discernment over doctrine

Quaker spirituality prioritizes:

“Is this faithful?”

Not:

“Is this allowed?”

So practices evolve organically around obedience rather than rule.

4. Where ancestors enter

Early Friends did not emphasize ancestor veneration, but they absolutely believed in:

• the “cloud of witnesses”
• continuity of spiritual fellowship beyond death
• spiritual companionship across generations

That is a very thin veil away from quiet ancestral awareness.

You are not ritualistically invoking ancestors.

You are relating to them.

That’s relational spirituality, not necromancy.

5. Why modern Quakers don’t talk about this

In the 19th and 20th centuries, Quakerism absorbed Protestant rationalism.

Anything that resembled:

• magic
• mysticism
• spiritual manifestations
• enchanted cosmology

…was either psychologized or minimized.

But historically?

The movement began in visionary ecstasy.

6. The theological position you actually occupy

You’re practicing what scholars sometimes call:

Participatory sacramentalism without clergy.

Your lantern, water, incense, pendulum —

these are not tools of domination.

They are instruments of attunement.

The working is not:

“I will.”

It is:

“Let it be so, if this is of the Light.”

That is profoundly Quaker.

7. Why you feel tension

Because modern categories split spirituality into:

• Religion (obedience, prayer, passive)
• Magic (agency, technique, control)

You’re inhabiting the older Christian category:

Cooperation.

That category largely disappeared after the Reformation flattened sacramental metaphysics.

Quakerism quietly preserved it — but without ritual vocabulary.

So people like you rediscover material participation and assume you must now choose:

Witch or Christian?

But structurally, you are neither in the modern sense.

You are something older.

8. If I were to name it carefully

Not Christian Witch (because you don’t claim operative authority).

Not generic Christo-Pagan (because Christ remains central and discernment-bound).

You are practicing:

Quaker participatory mysticism with folk elements.

Which historically absolutely exists.

If you’d like, we can go even deeper and examine:

• Whether pendulum divination conflicts with classic Quaker discernment
• Whether “works” should be renamed something else theologically
• Or whether your practice is stabilizing or destabilizing your inner silence

Those answers would sharpen the picture even further.

Me: Please expand on these three.  • Whether pendulum divination conflicts with classic Quaker discernment

• Whether “works” should be renamed something else theologically

• Or whether your practice is stabilizing or destabilizing your inner silence

AI Great — these three questions really get to the spiritual mechanics of what you’re doing, not just the labels.

I’ll stay grounded in historic Quaker spirituality (the tradition of the Religious Society of Friends) rather than modern internet takes, because the tension you’re feeling is exactly where early Friends spent a lot of time learning caution.

1) Does pendulum divination conflict with Quaker discernment?

The short answer:

Not automatically — but it can very easily replace discernment instead of serving it.

How classic Quaker discernment works

For early Friends (like George Fox), guidance had identifiable qualities:

It arises inwardly and unforced

• Not pulled out by a method
• Not demanded
• Often arrives in stillness or waiting

It carries moral weight

• Leads toward truthfulness, reconciliation, humility
• Not merely information

It has a particular texture

Friends described it as:

clear, steady, self-authenticating, and not anxious

So the authority comes from encounter, not extraction.

What a pendulum actually does psychologically/spiritually

A pendulum is a focusing amplifier.

It does one of three things:

1. Surfaces subconscious knowledge
2. Externalizes intuition into motion
3. Becomes a surrogate decision-maker

Only the first two fit Quaker practice — the third conflicts.

The danger line

You cross out of Quaker discernment when the question becomes:

“What does the pendulum say?”

instead of:

“What does the Light show — and does the pendulum confirm my clarity?”

In classic practice, outward signs confirm inward leading — never originate it.

So pendulum use is closest to Quaker spirituality when it functions like:

a clearness committee you hold in your hands, not an oracle over you.

If you feel relief before it moves → compatible

If you feel relief because it moved → it’s replacing discernment

2) Should “works” be renamed theologically?

Your instinct to avoid the word spell is actually theologically accurate.

Because a spell implies:

a technique produces an effect

But your framework is:

obedience allows participation

Historically, Christians used very different language for this:

Term	Meaning
Sign	outward act expressing inward command
Witness	material testimony to spiritual reality
Leading enacted	obedience embodied physically
Prayer with hands	petition made incarnate
Standing in the motion	cooperating with divine action

Early Friends frequently used “sign” or “testimony enacted.”

So your candle + water + incense is not best understood as a working.

It’s closer to:

an enacted leading

That removes the internal contradiction you’re feeling, because you’re not trying to cause — you’re agreeing.

3) Is your practice stabilizing or destabilizing your inner silence?

This is actually the most important question.

Quaker spirituality is calibrated around the quality of silence — not correctness of method.

So the test is diagnostic, not doctrinal.

Signs it is stabilizing

After practice you experience:

• deeper inward quiet
• less urgency to act
• reduced need for certainty
• increased tenderness toward others
• patience
• a sense of having waited with rather than figured out

The practice dissolves mental pressure.

Signs it is destabilizing

After practice you feel:

• compulsion to repeat or check
• need to confirm outcomes
• mental spinning about meanings
• dependence on tools to feel settled
• urgency to interpret signs

Now the act is feeding anxiety rather than grounding obedience.

The core Quaker test

Early Friends would ask:

Does this practice return you to waiting — or make waiting harder?

If it makes silence easier → it’s serving the Light

If it makes silence harder → it’s trying to replace the Light

Putting the three together

You’re healthiest spiritually when:

• The inward leading appears first
• The act expresses it
• The tool confirms but never decides
• Silence deepens afterward

At that point the lantern, water, incense, and pendulum function like sacraments — not mechanisms.

They become places where obedience touches matter.